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12/23/2004

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Lloyd

You've already forgotten the House Bank and S&L scandals? How does an hypocritical nit-wit working for casinos rival those?

Come on. I know you don't like Republicans but this is a bit of a stretch.

niq

What about Rostenkowski? Nothing he did was as corrupt as what's been done sense?

I think I agree with you on the larger issue though. Though I'm not sure if having the lobbyists be subsurvient to politicians, as is the case now, is better or worse than the other way around.

Mark Schmitt

What about Rostenkowski? What about the House bank? OK, for the benefit of readers who aren't 100 years old, let's review: Rostenkowski stole postage stamps and some office furniture. He went to jail for it, showed remorse, and was pardoned at the urging of many Republicans. The House bank was essentially a stupid, poorly managed way for members to take advances against their own pay, at no cost to anyone.

Abramoff and Quinlan took $82 million from the poorest, most disadvantaged Americans. And their accomplices were the highest-placed Republicans in power.

Case closed.

Lloyd

So Lobbying and Legal Representation (both legal) are worse than actual indictable offenses? And what's this "at no cost to anyone"? Members of congress were overdrawing their accounts months, sometimes years into the future. They weren't paying interest and they weren't giving the money back. By their own laws they could have been fined up to a million dollars a day. Yeah, that's poorly managed managed alright. That kind of poor bank management would land you or I in jail.

Dan Rostenkowski was indicted for corruption and convicted of Mail Fraud and Bill Clinton was the one that pardoned him. (Laying the groundwork for many more questionable pardons to come.)

But you still haven't discussed the Keating five? (Yes there was one Republican involved but guess who that was.)

Actually for those so inclined, wikipedia does a nice job of laying out US political scandals here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_scandals_of_the_United_States

Mark, no party is perfect and you know that power corrupts absolutely. Please dont make the mistake too many others do in pretending wrong is right just to make a political point.

Simon St.Laurent

I'm with you on reform, reform, reform, but Democrats do need to work hard to clear off a record that a lot of people have seen as corrupt (tolerably or not) for a long time. Cook County, Tweed, the Kansas City machine, other machines...

I've written about this at:
http://simonstl.com/articles/reform.html

At this point it seems like reform is both a coherent message for Democrats and the right thing to do. Actually doing reform rather than just talking is, as the Republicans are demonstrating now, a tough thing to do, but I think there's reason to hope we can do better.

Margot

The Corruption of American Politics: What Went Wrong and Why, by Elizabeth Drew
Have you read this? It's not about the current administration, but I thought it was really interesting.

Crab Nebula

Let's not forget the indictments of the Reagan administration, which to my recollection vastly outnumber those of any recent admin. Influence peddling going on all over the place.

And of course there's "legal corruption": the growing power of lobbyists and donors. Somehow, regular folks can never organize to press their case the way cartels, whole industries, or wealthy individualls can. Well, maybe theoretically they can, (i.e. if Unions actually could organize, or if "the people would just get together" - hah) but anybody who doesn't see a problem with the landscape as it is has their head buried in the sand.

niq

Thanks Mark for the summary of what Rostenkowski did. I for some reason thought he had done some slightly more corrupt things. Maybe he did but was just never accused of them.

Lloyd

http://www.cnn.com/ALLPOLITICS/1996/analysis/pundits.prose/gettinger/gettinger2.shtml

http://www.courttv.com/archive/legaldocs/government/rostenkowski.html

fnook

Lloyd, your initial reaction above is telling: "So Lobbying and Legal Representation (both legal) are worse than actual indictable offenses?" Do I detect an overly-defensive posture vis a vis the practice of Law and the fine art of Lobbying? Perhaps this helps explain your eagerness to engage in a childish pissing contest about which party's scandals are more or less morally reprehensible. Whatever. Personally, I sympathize with Mark's opinion here and suspect that we've hit some kind of corruption crest that's simply begging to come crashing down. But maybe he's wrong? Who knows and who really cares? I'm a west-coast Democrat. I'm too young to appreciate or understand the relative seriousness of Rostenkowski's past crimes. But I'm too old to think that my lack of knowledge on this front excludes me from participating in and shaping the process going forward. I don't like the policies and practices of the current batch of Republicans at all. Lloyd, get over yourself and your bizarre fascination with the tired old mis-deeds of yesteryear. Today's misdeeds are just as good, if not better, than the old ones! There's work to be done.

Lloyd

I would be the last to defend the lobbying or legal professions and you are right, what's done is done. The truth be told, I really don't expect much moral high ground to be taken by anyone given an enormous amount of power as power always begs corruption.

My only point was to answer this particular quote:

"There was plenty of corruption in "Democratic Washington," but even leaving out the "peculiar grossness" of this one, you won't find anything remotely comparable to this in the decades of Democratic control."

That's it. And if you re-read that statement you'll see that the "bizarre fascination with the tired old mis-deeds of yesteryear" is only to put context to the premise.

Now if Mark wanted to use the rule changes made to protect DeLay's post in the event of indictment he would have a very good point. In my opinion that was a very low moment in congressional history and I'm ashamed that it happened. But to point out a lobbying effort as some grievous sin against humanity when that kind of crap is so universal to all of Washington?!? - The argument just doesn't work.

I would much rather read and discuss Mark's (and your) take on tax and social security reform, affordable healthcare, etc than have to answer the tired old "the Republicans are Evil" crap, but that's what the post was about.

Jon Koppenhoefer

Anybody have the details on Phil Gramm's investments in 'titty flicks', i.e., soft-core porn?

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