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12/10/2004

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Sven

A masterful non-renunciation renunciation of Beinart. I found myself nodding in agreement with every sentence.

Sven

Holy smokes! Ralph Nader renunciates Michael Moore! Seriously!

Will the real Michael Moore ever re-emerge and shut the door on his theatre of the absurd? It was a wild and crazy run, was it not, Michael? Weeks of standing before large college audiences mixing a potion of book and movie promotions with a message that was more laughable than producing laughter. You told the young men and women that "George W. Bush and John Kerry both suck. Vote for Kerry." That is supposed to be "cool?" Here you were -- against the Iraq War occupation, pro-justice for the Palestinian people, against the Patriot Act, against the swollen military budget and you were telling the university students to vote for Kerry who is on the complete opposite side of these issues.

Sven

And Charles Pierce renunciates the New Republic!

I mean, it's been a pretty good 20-year run for the Singer midgets since they signed aboard Ronald Reagan's Excellent Nun-Slaughtering adventures in Central America. People still take them nearly as seriously as they take themselves -- and this is despite Ruthie Shalit and Stevie Glass, and the Bell Curve, and Liz McCaughey's health-care horsepucky, and Beinart's own defense of on-your-Beltway-duff reporting from a couple of months back. Turning a highly successful -- would TNR really like to measure itself against the works of Michael Moore using any of the conventional benchmarks of American success? -- progressive activist into cheap shorthand in order to advance the progressive cause is a strategy that leads me to believe that maybe some of the golden children need to get out into the country more.

Walt Pohl

I think that your description of being a "liberal hawk wannabe" is incredibly illuminating of the psychological issues involved. For someone like Beinart, it's less about forming the right policy (with all the tedious work of forming a political coalition behind it), and more about striking a pose.

Matt McIrvin

Does this mean we have to stop demanding that Republicans renounce Ann Coulter and John Derbyshire and Pat Robertson and the Montana Militia? Or do they just not have to listen?

Desert Donkey

"I couldn't have faith in the Bush administration to do things right, I couldn't bring myself to see the threat of Iraq as in any way related to Islamic terrorism"

"Al Qaeda is a huge and monstrous gang. It "threatens millions" in one major sense: if it gets a nuclear weapon it will use it. That's a big deal, but it's a very different deal. The one and only thing, I think, would be to make sure that they don't get a nuclear weapon. Yes, we can and should also destroy the monstrous gang"

These two quotes, Mark, highlight the whole problem in my mind. The administration managed to convince people that Iraq might be an offshoot of the 'gang' or just another gang that would mimic Al Quaeda. Even if true, using a war to solve the problem indicates a massive lack of imagination. I do not believe that the US could not have taken Sadam and his crew out without bombing Iraq back to the stone age. Bush could not be, and cannot be trusted to analyze, plan and execute in a manner that improves the world. He has a long pattern of using every aspect of policy to reward his friends and punish his enemies.

As you point out, there are no positive results in the war on terror. Ashcroft got his way and did not deliver. Bush got his way and did not deliver. Democrats will improve our image in this regard when we do things that work, instead of trying to be more or less militaristic than Republicans.

Paul Siegel

Very good. Here is what I wrote on my blog:

How Democrats Should "Fight"

Peter Beinart, in the 12/13/04 issue of The New Republic, suggests that to win future political battles, Democrats must drop their peaceful liberalism and replace it with a warlike liberalism. We should drop "soft" Howard Dean in favor of someone as "hard" as Lieberman. I say Lieberman is so "hard" you may as well call him a Republican. Dean is my man because he wants to move the Democratic Party in exactly the opposite direction from that favored by Beinart. I, and Dean, want a Democratic Party that "fights" for a domestic policy that is concerned with all American citizens, not only the rich; that "fights" for a foreign policy that encourages freedom, democracy and helpfulness among all nations; and that "fights" terrorists who attack us, and not "rogue" states.

Beinart says:

"... there is little liberal passion to win the struggle against Al Qaeda."

I don't know where he gets this from. It seems that he is confusing the Iraq War with the war on terrorism. The two are not related. There never has been a working relationship between Saddam Hussein and Al Qaeda. Because of Bush's intense propaganda, something like 40% of the people still believe it.

Surely Beinart does not believe this also.

Liberals, like all Americans, want to get rid of Al Qaeda. It's ridiculous to say or imply anything different. The question is how. Most liberals insist that we should have stayed in Afghanistan until we captured Osama bin Laden. Instead Bush - and Beinart championed the idea - attacked Iraq. Yes, there is little liberal passion for the struggle in Iraq, but there is plenty of liberal passion to destroy Al Qaeda.

Beinart states:

"... if liberalism was to credibly oppose totalitarianism, it could not be reflexively hostile to military force."

Liberals are not hostile to military force. They approach the problem differently from conservatives. Conservatives are competitive people; they have the "us vs. them" attitude. They see themselves as "good" people fighting "evil" people in the world. They believe in attacking, then talking. Liberals are cooperative people; they have the "we're in this together" attitude. They see people around the world with different approaches. They would rather talk first and attack if all else fails. Liberals truly believe in the slogan: "Military force as a last resort."

I do agree with Beinart - partially - when he says:

"But, while an updated Marshall Plan and an expanded Peace Corps for the Muslim world are more naturally liberal than conservative ideas, they have not resonated among post-September 11 liberal activists."

I agree with his implication that these are great ideas. Doing things like this would cost a lot less than war, do more to win America friends in the Muslim world, and will accelerate the building of democracy in the Arab world.

This sort of thing does resonate among liberals, especially those Beinart calls "soft."

Fighting terrorism is important. But liberals should not change their basic philosophy to do it. Liberals should continue fighting for the little guy, both at home and abroad.

Richard Cownie

I think I agree with you. In particular
I've been baffled by the question of
what distinct policy and principles
the "liberal hawks" would put forward.
For anyone who supported the Iraq
(mis)adventure at the time of invasion,
when UN inspectors had checked our best
intelligence about WMD and found it to
be worthless; the UN security council
was opposed to immediate action; and
major allies such as France and Germany
were also opposed - for those hawks,
I have two questions: on what principle
did they make that decision ? and how
would their actions and policies differ
from Bush's ?

Surely decisions of war and peace must
be made on solid moral and practical
principles - but the only justification
I seem to hear is that of political
calculation - that Democrats need to be
as "tough" as Bush to win election.

serial catowner

How can anyone be credible if they don't reflexively question the use of military force?

The military is the cost-plus results-minus way of doing anything, with lots of extra downside and potential liability built in. Kind of like a chutes-and-ladders game with way more chutes than ladders.

When you hear a military solution proposed, the first question in your mind should be "Isn't there a better way?"

It's mindboggling that Beinert's brainless 'toughness' has survived for 50 years in the shadow of our knowledge that we can now destroy ourselves completely by going to war. Maybe this is what they mean when they talk about 'reptilian brain'.

Quiddity

Very interesting and well thought out post. I was pleased to read: "Al Qaeda is a huge and monstrous gang."

Which is something that people are beginning to recognize. A gang, not a state power. There was the illusion of substantial power due to the fact that they hijacked airplanes and, for a brief moment, had an air force. But other than that, all that they have explosives, trucks, small boats, and people willing to die in an attack. A meanace, to be sure, but nothing that justifies a compete re-organization of the federal government, or an invasion into Iraq.

Walt Pohl

Richard: I supported the Iraq war on the basis of practical and moral principles, not political calculation. Clearly, in retrospect, I was wrong.

Richard Cownie

Walt: thanks for your admission of error
Can you tell me what practical and
moral principles you based your decision
on ? For myself, I favor the principles
of Just War, plus the Powell Doctrine as
a practical guide. I would also
recognize the "pre-9/11 consensus"
position - go to war only with the
support of major allies and NATO or UN.
But the Iraq war seemed to require
something beyond these "dove" or
"multilateralist" positions.

Alexander Wolfe

I really don't understand the need of some liberals and Democrats to go after people like Michael Moore. They seem to think that people like Moore, who admittedly are sometimes over the top, are the reason we lose elections, by turning off conservatives in the center. Do conservatives similarly worry about people like Ann Coulter turning off liberals who might lean conservative? No! Rather, they embrace them, because they understand that you need people in your movement who will confront the other side, who will motivate the faithful, who attract attention to your cause, and who act as a thorn in the side of your opponents. And what of all the people Moore did make think twice about their convictions with F 9/11? Whatever you may think of Moore's antics, the truth is he cares very deeply about his country and is willing to risk being lampooned even by those who are supposedly on the same side as him, to get his point across. We don't need less of people like Moore...we need more.

Rwells

Decembrist:

Lots of things to chew on here; namely the contrast between historical conjunctures, and the particular "threats" they create. I have quibbles with the characterization of the communist threat--sure, the CIO had communist organizers, but were they really poised to take it over? Or any other institution? Didn't communists do some good in this country, in the steadfast commitment to integration, in the overall direction of popular front politics and the New Deal? And despite the Kremlin's authority over the CP, did that mean that every US communist dreamed of Stalinesque totalitarian power?

I also think stronger words need apply to the liberal hawks of Iraq fame. They meant well, shit, we all want democracy in the Middle East, and we all know Hussein is a bad guy. But liberal hawks either never did the analysis, or consciously let an overwrought sense of personal moral purpose (and sometimes ambition), over ride the reality behind the shameful casuistries of the Bush Administration on Iraq. Tony Blair represents the dilemma writ large, on a national political stage. If there was ever need to not separate a war from those who would perpetrate it, this was the one, and that was clear from the start.

I'll leave the language of "soft" and "hard" to cultural studies critiques; it's a Freudian field day.

But isn't this the reality, that most people think force can be legitimate, not just in pursuit of the "national interest," but in pursuit of justice? The thing is that it doesn't matter how much one says that force can be legitimate (or, for that matter, that Saddam was a bad guy), because the real issue issue is the legitimacy of force for the particular situation at hand, which in this case is Iraq. The hard vs. soft opposition is, in my opinion, a kind of a trap, if we are talking about staking out a meaningful, long term position. For soft really points to a meaner set of suppositions; first, it means against this war in Iraq (especially if you were from the beginning), and second, given the election results, it is just a losing way to package a candidate.

Walt Pohl

Richard: I think I suffered from a serious case of confirmation bias. I already believed (pre-Bush) that Iraq was developing WMDs, so when Bush trumpeted the claim that Iraq was developing WMDs, I thought he was only telling me something I already knew. At the time, it seemed odd to me that all of the evidence he presented turned out to be so weak, but I didn't resolve the cognitive dissonance of it all until after the invasion (towards the end of May).

I thought there was a three-pronged test for war: moral, legal, and practical. The moral argument (Saddam was a bad, bad man) I'm sure you're familiar with. The legal argument was that Saddam was violating the terms of the cease-fire by not cooperating with inspectors -- a weak legal argument before the war, but if we discovered massive amounts of WMDs it would seem stronger retrospectively. For the practical argument, I just took the word of the Bush administration that it wouldn't distract from the war on terror, and that the aftermath wouldn't be that difficult.

Richard Cownie

Walt: thanks very much for taking the time to
explain your reasons for supporting the Iraq
invasion (at that time). To confess a mistake
is hard, but admitting and analyzing mistakes is
the best (maybe only) way to get it right next time.

Certainly your position is understandable, given
the statements from the administration and the
media frenzy at the time. You had to be quite
paranoid to believe there could be that much
smoke without any fire - for myself, I thought
the nuclear scare was bogus, but I did expect
they would find a few chemical weapons and claim
that as a retrospective justification.

Lloyd

Mark says:
"But there's no reason to believe that al Qaeda is the only monstrous gang that might aspire to commit mass murders in the future, and the others may not even be Islamic."

You mean like Iraq, right? You actually make the case for being a "liberal hawk" right there.

No, there were no operational ties between Iraq and Al Quaeda but there is a huge paper trail of Saddam funding terrorism around the globe (particularly suicide bombings in Israel). Let's remember this is a "War on Terrorism" not on Al Quaeda, or Osama, or Saddam, or -enter state sponsoring terrorist thug name here-. Are we to just look the other way when a country under sanction for creating/using weapons of mass destruction and invading neighboring countries is also a known sponsor of terrorism?


Mark says:
"Beinart asks us as Democrats to renounce and excommunicate moveon.org, Michael Moore, and anyone who was uncomfortable with the use of force in Afghanistan. "

Perhaps (and I can't believe I'm saying this) Beinhart is right. Just as the anti-communist liberals renounced communist sympathizers during the cold war, a "liberal hawk" would renounce those that blame the actions of terrorists on the policies of America or the existence of Israel, as the sympathizers actions could possibly do more harm than the enemy itself.

Mark says:
"If the argument is about some definition of "totalitarianism" bigger than al-Qaeda itself -- Saudi Arabia, Pakistan's leadership, Syria, the Palestinian leadership, Iran, some big worldview thing -- then I'd at least want to know what it is."

It's not. It's about terrorism. Are you against terrorism? To ask it is to answer it.

Lloyd

PS. I renounce Trent Lott... again.

joe o

Peter Beinart's article also doesn't make it clear that Kerry advocated all the right things policywise. Kerry said:

Nuclear weapons are a huge problem.
The iraq war was a bad idea.
Al qaeda is the main problem.
Special forces and homeland defence need to be beefed-up.

The war in Iraq is a dangerous sideshow. Everyone knows it. Bush has made us less safe. The mainstream Democrat position is way better. Why blame Micheal Moore? Why pretend that Bush has better policies just because he was re-elected?

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