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11/04/2004

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Joe O

Gay marriage is a dilemma because there is no non-homophobic reasons to oppose it, other than the base political considerations that you describe for Wallace. But we have to be clear that it is both democats and republicans that have the base political considerations. Kerrey, Edwards Clinton, Obama and all other major democratic candidates are against gay marriage. Its like Wallace wanted a constitutional amendment discriminating against blacks and Humphrey was in favor of discriminating against blacks but wanted to allow the individual states to decide how to discriminate against blacks as a federalism matter.

The reason the gay marriage issue worked against Kerrey is that people thought that deep down Kerrey saw nothing wrong with gay marriage, that he was a "closet tolerant". Based on Kerry's vote against the "defence of marriage" act, those people were right.

Sullivan's argument is that bush and chenney are "closet tolerants" like Kerrey is. If Bush were to make an appointment of an openly gay person to a major position, would your first reaction be "how could bush possiblly interact with an openly gay person?" or "how will this play with his base?"

Time is on the side of gay rights and gay marriage. All polititions including Bush and chenney know this. It may take 10-20 years for it to happen though.

fatbear

I feel horrible, because Mark is so right - buried up to my neck in all the other fights, I didn't pay serious attention to the fight over the initiatives. And Mark is also right that next time it won't be gays, it'll be Sikhs or the disabled or Jews or you-name-it - we're at 1933, and if we don't watch it we'll be at 1937.

Lloyd

I know you guys are all pretty upset about losing but take a breath. I can't deny that there were voters voting for these ballot initiatives because they are truly homophobic. I'll even grant you that the ballot initiatives may have increased turnout (though if you don't think voting for the president of your country is reason enough to vote, I doubt this would matter much to you). But please, now that the election is over, can we please just stop the lie that being "Anti Gay Marriage" means that you are "Anti Gay". What you don't seem to want to grasp is that this issue is a matter of definition - Not the definition of "Gay" (or any moral valuation of homosexuality) but the definition of "Marriage".

The bans passed preventing civil unions ARE a horrible, hateful violation of rights because free people have the right to enter into contracts with one another. Attach whatever additional meaning you want to them, they are contracts that offer protection to gay couples and families. To preventing someone from entering into such a relationship on the basis of anything is a clear violation of rights and we all need to stand up and say it.

Conversely there currently is no "right" for any person to enter into a marriage without first meeting certain criteria. Both parties must be single, neither party can be nearly related and the parties must be of the opposite sex. Like it or not, the "laws" for marriage are based on the "definition" of marriage that has existed for thousands of years.

I don't hear anyone screaming bigot over this same support of the definition of marriage when cases brought forward by the latter day saints and shot down.

Frankly until the left stops spewing all of these venomous labels at people whose beliefs differ from theirs, important issues like those of civil unions will never be brought forward and protected.

It makes you all look so ridiculous and cheapens the meaning of the words when you call everyone with a differing opinion on this issue a homophobe or a bigot or a nazi when the people you label may actually agree with you enough to help make a change for the better and further marginalize those people that who the terms actually apply.

El Gringo Loco

In talking about reasons why straight progressives should see gay marriage as a central issue, it's important not to overlook the way in which this ultimately points toward a direct assault on the rights of people other than gays. The initiative passed in Ohio prohibited all public institutions from granting domestic-partner benefits - to any unmarried couple. Most straight progressives presumably believe there is nothing wrong with living with your partner even if you're not married to him/her. But that is definitely not ok with the Christian Right, and I'm sure they'll be going after all domestic partnerships if and when they feel they've finally gotten their way with gays. They'll do this both because they want to, and because they people who manipulate them will need something else to keep them coming to the polls.

Make no mistake about it: The Christian Right has in its gunsights not just gay partnerships, but any partnership that doesn't conform to a very narrow and traditionalist model of what courtship, romance and sex are all about. I'm not saying that stright progressives should need a reason of self-interest to oppose the Christian Right on this issue - just that such reasons definitely exist.

Dan

One constant way the Dems and progressives get hit on many values issues, but especially issues of sexual morality, is by the insinuation that they have an "anything goes morality". And the left can *seem* as if they agree with this "anything goes" approach when they invoke notions of personal rights, sexual freedom etc. ("See, they want you to be able to do anything!") So, it would be nice if the Dems had some more substantive (not just rights-based) things to say on matters sexual and familial. This is of course extremely difficult ground because it is an important part of the progressive view that we should give wide room for different sexual views, ideals, living arrangements etc. So: it's hard to know what unifying values we should invoke. But, clearly, there are broad social worries about commitment, divorce, raising children etc. Again, to be clear: I don't mean to suggest that the left just become the right. But the point is: if something has to take the place of traditional sexual morality then it can't just be the absence of morality. What we say should be different. But too often mere invocation of rights and an absence of anything substantive to say just feeds the idea that the left think anything goes. (And, of course, some do think this -- but this is exactly the kind of morally null view from which Dems and progressives should be distancing themselves.)

Off-Topic Necessity

Kerry for Senate minority leader.

The party desperately needs an effective spokesman if we can get any traction resisting Bush's agenda. Kerry has become a credible spokesman for the party. He is flawed as a speaker, but he is forceful and becomes increasingly likeable with each widespread exposure.

The Senate Democratic caucus, to put it mildly, would be resistant to Kerry as minority leader. If this is to have a chance of happening, liberal groups, bloggers, and the rank and file must pressure the caucus effectively. Perhaps somebody will do a national poll, and discover that a big majority of Democrats support the idea.

We need him far more than many of us realize.

ctd

"What you don't seem to want to grasp is that this issue is a matter of definition - Not the definition of "Gay" (or any moral valuation of homosexuality) but the definition of "Marriage"."

I'm not about to engage in speculation about the reasons people had for voting against (let's frame the issue your way) changing the definition of "marriage" (and, by the way, are we talking about a concept or an institution here? It's hard to tell from what you say.), but I don't think that this way of framing the issue really shows anything about why people voted as they did. The problem is that this doesn't tell us anything about why people think there is a problem with changing the definition of marriage. You seem to make an attempt at providing some explanation here:

"Like it or not, the "laws" for marriage are based on the "definition" of marriage that has existed for thousands of years."

Let's grant that. You still haven't offered any explanation of why people are against changing those laws by changing the definition. The question being addressed when people head to the polls isn't whether that is in fact the current definition, but whether it should be the definition now and in the future. (After all, we aren't asking people to make a judgment about the empirical facts concerning either the meaning of the word "marriage" or concerning the way the institution of marriage is defined by our current laws and has been defined by laws and customs in other societies. Of course, such facts might well have some bearing on the judgment we're asking people to make; but those facts alone don't appear to settle how one should judge.)

So what aren't telling us is why framing the issue in this way shows us something about why people don't think gays should be allowed to marry. Are you saying that people were simply voting for upholding the status quo concerning the definition of marriage? Or do you think that they had more substantial reasons for thinking that should be the definition of marriage? And if it's the latter, then it's those more substantial reasons that we need to know about before we can figure out just why people didn't want gay people to marry. Telling us that they just don't want to change the definition of marriage isn't any explanation of the reason why they don't want gay people to be able to marry; it's just another way of telling us that they didn't want gay people to marry.

Another, perhaps unrelated, point.

"The bans passed preventing civil unions ARE a horrible, hateful violation of rights because free people have the right to enter into contracts with one another... To preventing someone from entering into such a relationship on the basis of anything is a clear violation of rights and we all need to stand up and say it."

Frankly, I don't see how you can square this position with the importance you appear to attach to definitions that are codified in current laws. I take it that allowing gay people to have civil unions is simply allowing them access to the sorts of civil marriage that are available to straight couples. And it seems that the current laws of most states explicitly define civil marriage in such a way that it's a contract that can only be entered into as long as the following conditions are met: "Both parties must be single, neither party can be nearly related and the parties must be of the opposite sex." This is the way that civil marriage is currently defined in most places, and it's certainly rooted in long-standing traditions. (They might not be traditions that are thousands of years old, but my guess is that they're pretty darn old.) So why isn't allowing gays to have civil unions simply overthrowing a definition of civil marriage that should be retained? What's the difference in this case that justifies altering the relevant definition? It certainly can't just be that we've come up with a new phrase, viz. "civil union", to cover up the fact that we're meddling with established definitions. In other words, I don't see why you don't also think there's a definition of "civil union" that rules out extending the benefits of civil marriage to gays.

Noel

Repeat after me:

"George W. Bush fag-bashed his way to the White House"

We need to villify the hard core of hatred that put him over the top. This should shame enough people on the margins to tip the balance of power our way.

Obviously, there's much more that needs to be done, but this needs to be done now.

VJ

I ran 2 local campaigns in Ga. We had one of these really poorly written anti-gay marriage amendments on our ballot, and I think it really mobilized the church vote down here. They did lots of voter registration over it too. All my candidates, as conservative Democrats were against the ban, as most of the Legislature was. But I told them to a person, they would not use it in their campaigns as a principal issue. State their opposition and move on, was my advice. The other side did, and 'out biased' us on this issue in debate after debate, ad after ad. They just simply lied to their hearts' content over it. In once local race in particular it was the base of the Repug. campaign against a very solidly conservative incumbent who had opposed any such proposals. He was mocked for even suggesting that gays had any 'civil rights' what so ever.

All my guys lost, including the one who put out his own CD replete with a history of his family singing Gospel music that he has self produced for the last 25 years. He had formerly worked for Jerry Falwell too doing his radio production work. We ran what was a flawless campaign, and probably personally contacted 80% of all our constituents. It was not enough. Part of the reason was this Christian Caol. endorsed wave of yes, religious bigotry.

All these very conserviative candidates came to agree with me that if the interpretation on 'civil union contracts' stood, it would represent the type of reviled discrimination that was seen in the Jim Crow era and worse. Something wicked this way comes guys.... This needs to be called out for what it is: It is Pure evil to use this bigotry as a mobilizing political tool, and denying the right of contract to a citizen DOES take us back to Before the Dred Scott days. It really needs to be said, This is Brown Shirt, George Wallace type of tactics and legislation. There's nothing tolerant about this effort. And yes, our state CC director even has a gay daughter who wrote into the AJC the last week finally denouncing the effort of her own mother. That's how far these people will go to enforce their view of morality on the rest of us.

Doug Ireland

While I applaud your comments on "Closet Tolerants," I think you seriously misread the effect of the anti-gay marriage initiatives. As I've pointed out in print and on my blog, these initiatives were targeting not simply evangelicals, but also working-class Catholic voters. Moreover, the gay marriage issue was used as a fulcrum by Rove/Bush to leverage into the electoral arena the anti-gay backlash which I've chronicled since it first appeared in the public opinion polls in the summer of '03,in the wake of the Supreme Court's decision in Lawrence v. Texas striking down all so-called "sodomy" laws making gay sex illegal. You can find this argument, and citations from the opinion surveys demonstrating the backlash, by going to "Homo Hate: The Wedge Issue That Worked," on my blog, DIRELAND, at:
http://direland.typepad.com/direland/2004/11/homo_hate_the_w.html
Regards, Doug Ireland

Soulforce

Mark is quite correct to say this is an issue that straight religious progressive folks need to speak out on. The hatred and bigotry is predominantly coming from our churches - that should alarm us.

I encourage everyone to visit http://www.soulforce.org/main/biblical.shtml and download the PDF "What the Bible Does and Doesn't say about homosexuality."

I have too many friends who are hurt by these laws and these attitudes to stand by and watch them be persecuted and be used as political whipping boys. It's long PAST time for the "religious left" to speak out.

http://www.soulforce.org has a number of resources that will help you sort through this issue and find your voice.

Want to break the grip of the far right? Challenge them on these unbiblical claims - peel off moderate christians and deepen the divisions between the fiscal and social conservatives and their house of cards *will* collapse.

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